Date sent:       Sat, 11 Dec 1999 09:02:16 +1030

Hi Albert,

The horoscope of the US you have given isn't the most popular horoscope.
There are at least three different charts. There is the Sibley Chart, that
has a time of 17:10 LMT. This gives 12Sag21 rising.  There is the Rudhayar
Chart at 17:13 EST and gives 12Sag50 rising. 

Then there are the other charts
used by Doris Doane, Barbara Watters, Noel Tyl, Alan Oken, Arroyo, Nick
Campion and the list goes on. This time is 02:13 and gives 7Gemin03 rising.
At all the conferences I have been to, I have only ever seen astrologers
using the Gemini rising chart. I think you may find this is the most popular
one.

Neil
 
 
 

Date sent:       Fri, 10 Dec 1999 19:19:12 +0300

Dear Group,

[Abridged - moderator]. 
The most popular chart is July 4, 1776 with
ASC at 13 Sagittarius and MC at 1 Libra, Sun in 8 house. Neil said that in
the USA chart there is Gemini raising, then Sun is in 2 house.

I guess, Neil may not fully understand the difference between Sun in 2 and 8
houses. This is simply the same difference as between personal finance and
collective finance. USA as state is obviously most concerned by the
collective (world) finance, so they have Sun more likely in 8th house than
in 2nd. Moreover, USA simply CONTROLS most of the world finances, because of
contra-parallel of Saturn (control) and Neptune (finance), both are near
midheaven.

But what possibly is unknown for most of all astrologers that Pluto and
Mercury in the chart with ASC 13 Sagittarius are placed EXACTLY on the
East-West axis (in the horozontal projection). That is another one reason
for US to be more powerful.

Note, that my message initiated this dispute about USA and American succes
ideology, was posted on December 6 when Sun was at 14 Sagittarius, i.e. it
just got into the 1st house of the USA (and attracted attention to them).
True Dark Moon conjuncted the ASC of US at that time, so the negative and
all-disclaim response was predetermined.

It seems that horoscope of USA with ASC at 13 Sag. is quite correct, but in
order to be sure, it will great to rectify it by the number of events, at
least 10-20, most important in American history. Is here any historicains,
who could list few tens of most significant dates of the US history, to let
us finaly rectify the chart of USA and build the forecast on how the USA
will develop in the forthcoming century, and will it turn into darkness of
neo-fascism (that will inevitably lead to World War III) or it will not.

That's all our destinies on the map, let's analyse it!

Regards,
Albert R. Timashev
St. Petersburg, Russia
 
 
 

Date sent:       Sat, 1 May 1999 00:09:38 -0500 (CDT)
Subject:         ##%%Boyd Chart

In one of the  posts I read where some one  had an idea about  the USA
chart.  The Boyd chart seems to be used  quite often. I had a whole story
about it, but can  give a quick run down.  ..It was developed through
historical  research done by Helen Boyd, with help of Brigadier R.C.
Firebrace. That research and the rationale for  adopting  the ' War' chart
is  as reasonable  as that for the several charts   floating around  on
the July 4 th 1776  data.  Its real strength  is the clarity with which it
seems to mark  important events in the nations life. The chart is based on
the fact  that  the Second Continental  Congress issued  a formal
declaration of war on July 6th 1775, marking an important step in the
colonies separation from the Crown,  in the opinion of Helen Boyd.. She
wrote  a book called 'the True Horoscope of the United States.  It has not
been published in some time, and I would like to purchase another copy.  I
had gotten  the book from ASI. 
 
 

Date sent:       Sat, 1 May 1999 00:24:10 -0500 (CDT)
Subject:         ##%% Boyd chart

I have  also used this chart  when there seems to be a question on the
President. The data is: 

USA  BOYD CHART July  6, 1775...
11:00  AM  LMT
39N57  75 W 10 
Philadelphia  Pa 

If any one is interested, you
can also use the  chart  for the first Inauguration,  the  data is: 
April 30 , 1789 New York City,  NY 
00:38:00  AM EST 
073W 57  40 N 45'00 

This is also the date  which  is used for the  US FEDERAL 
GOVERNMENT. George Washington  was  inaugurated  in what was then 
the Capitol of the USA. 

Jim Lewis  used the Boyd chart  in his publication  of Mundane Maps  in
1991. Kaye

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 

Date sent:       Sat, 19 Feb 2000 01:43:31 GMT
Subject:         [##] Re: beginning of USA
 

Mary,

Thank you for your thoughts. I agree with you that we should not expect too 
much from the US chart. And certainly issues that don't effect most of us 
can be seen in the smaller group entities i.e., states and corporations etc.

I feel that it was in the nation's interest for the masses to  rallying 
around the O.J Simpson trial in 1995. The secondary progressed Mercury of 
the US chart was stationary retrograde very close to the time of the murder 
that provoked that trial which we were all exposed to on a national 
televised scale. Interestingly, it happens that the Natal Mercury of the US 
chart and O.J.Simpson's Mercury are in the exact same degree of the zodiac. 
One could say that this is a coincidence or rather that this does directly 
provide a connection between national and astrological events that mirror 
each other. Isn't that what we are looking for, correspondences that we feel 
give meaning to astrological events, even though it is largely a subjective 
affair?

Another issue of great importance (which at the time Arlene Kramer pointed 
out to me) to the nation was Mrs. Clinton's failed health plan which 
occurred extremely close to the US progressed lunation of June 1995. Marc 
Edmund Jones in his, Mundane Perspectives in Astrology, states that the Moon 
being quickened in Mundane affairs possesses the keyword HEALTH or public 
well-being. This can be considered another coincidence, but that is what 
astrology is all about, and we choose what we wish to believe is relevant.

Also there was plenty of astrological activity in the surrogate horoscope of 
Bill Clinton to draw a nation to attention in the scandal of 1998 when at 
the same time a secondary progressed Saturn stationed in the US chart. I 
have been interested in what might be an equally challenging national 
concern or development now while Uranus in secondary progression is doing a 
station in the US chart. This is how this whole discussion started. I wanted 
to know what symmetrical astrologers had to say about this Uranus station 
via the 90 degree wheel, planetary pictures, etc. No one being interested 
doesn't make me feel any less curious, but I will eventually experiment 
myself to find some parallel comparisons.

I take the position that a meeting of a group of individuals declaring the 
birth of a nation is as valid as any birth of one single individual. 
Rebellion and the establishment of a new entity take form through one and 
the same procedure. The formation and writing of the rules of a government 
body, (constitution) choosing of its presidents and wars won or lost in its 
behalf are only incidents related to the start of that nation so declared by 
a signed document from a unanimous agreement of a union of individuals 
promising to believe in the sovereignty of their decided territory.

Lastly let me answer some of your questions, rhetorical or not:

MARY: How does any USA chart simultaneously show floods on the Mississippi 
and roaring stock market prices?

SARAH: Granted, one will find astrological activity in the charts of the US 
separate state entities effected by floods, but one can also find these 
floods reflected in the US chart through an investigation of the activity in 
its 6th and 9th houses. The stock market issues are a national concern and 
would be found in the 2nd, 5th and 8th houses of the US chart. The 
simultaneous activity of the planets in the houses and the configurations 
formed with the house rulers are to be examined.

MARY: The July 4th chart probably relates to the concept of independence per 
se, but it doesn't relate to our government in any way I can see. If it did, 
I'd have a universal experience with every branch of government.

SARAH: The government is the product of that declaration and it is its tool 
or arm of administration.

As far as one experiencing universal connection, an example of one is when 
the country goes to war with its separate military forces acting as one 
united force; we all go to war, whether we agree or not in its legality.

MARY: I've also been impressed with individual state's charts concerning 
"events" in their borders.  Colorado was very active in the Littleton 
shootings, as was Oklahoma during the Federal Building bombing.  Why would 
we expect the July 4 chart to reflect local problems?

SARAH: I totally agree that individual state charts reflect the events 
within their borders. At the same time some of these state events take on 
national significance. For instance, the bombing in the separate state of 
Oklahoma affected the entire nation because it was a FEDERAL building which 
was bombed. Many changes in security procedures were instituted on a 
national scale because of that "isolated" incident.

Sarah
 
 

MARY WROTE:
Dear SArah

I appreciate your points -- that we should "pick a chart" and that there
doesn't seem to be much interest in discussing one.

There certainly is something in the philosophy of the US that is represented
in the Gemini Rising July 4th chart.  However, my husband's business sells
to the Federal Government in competitive bids.  I have a collection of
charts of various agencies that are quite useful and have been tested
through something as simple as bid awards.

I think we expect too much from a national chart.  How does any USA chart
simultaneously show floods on the Mississippi and roaring stock market
prices? The July 4th chart probably relates to the concept of independence
per se, but it doesn't relate to our government in any way I can see. If it
did, I'd have a universal experience with every branch of government.

Believe me the chart for the Navy relates to the Annapolis scandals just as
well as whether they are a likely customer. The company's chart relates
beautifully to the Marine Corp.  It (Allware) got an award from them for
scrabbling together all sorts of replacement computer equipment after a
hurricane in Florida.  At the same time we were having an awful time with
the Navy department and almost went to court because of their bidding 
practices.

I've also been impressed with individual state's charts concerning "events"
in their borders.  Colorado was very active in the Littleton shootings, as
was Oklahoma during the Federal Building bombing.  Why would we expect the
July 4 chart to reflect local problems?

There's a concept of concatenation; events strung together like a string of
pearls.  That's the US, a string of linked individual pearls making a whole
necklace. There's a rebellion, the presidency, a constitution, branches of
govenment and individual states.

--Mary
 
 

Date sent:       Tue, 8 Feb 2000 09:54:00 EST
 

The USA chart that I use is 7/4/1776 at 12:00 Noon, for Phil. PA. It is the 
chart used by Hans Niggeman. I get better results from that chart. 

Since there is no valid documented proof of any of a time for the signing of 
the Declaration of Independence, I use the time I use when I do not have a 
birth time and that is 12:00 Noon.

Now if you want to check out an interesting notion Wayne Booher has another 
idea. He wrote an article on the US Chart, which was printed in the Fall 1997 
issue of the NCGR Journal. Wayne uses the Surrender of Cornwallis at Yorktown.

 Wayne states that the signing of the Declaration of Independence was the 
conception and the true birth was the surrender. He strongly feels that until 
the war for independence was won the signed declaration was worthless.

The Date Wayne uses is Oct 19, 1781 at 3:03:45 EST 37n14, 76W30.

Arlene Marcia NImark 
 

Date sent:       Fri, 18 Feb 2000 16:57:31 -0500 (EST)
Subject:         [##] Re: beginning of USA
 

Dear SArah

I appreciate your points -- that we should "pick a chart" and that there
doesn't seem to be much interest in discussing one.

There certainly is something in the philosophy of the US that is represented
in the Gemini Rising July 4th chart.  However, my husband's business sells
to the Federal Government in competitive bids.  I have a collection of
charts of various agencies that are quite useful and have been tested
through something as simple as bid awards. 

I think we expect too much from a national chart.  How does any USA chart
simultaneously show floods on the Mississippi and roaring stock market
prices? The July 4th chart probably relates to the concept of independence
per se, but it doesn't relate to our government in any way I can see. If it
did, I'd have a universal experience with every branch of government. 

Believe me the chart for the Navy relates to the Annapolis scandals just as
well as whether they are a likely customer. The company's chart relates
beautifully to the Marine Corp.  It (Allware) got an award from them for
scrabbling together all sorts of replacement computer equipment after a
hurricane in Florida.  At the same time we were having an awful time with
the Navy department and almost went to court because of their bidding practices.

I've also been impressed with individual state's charts concerning "events"
in their borders.  Colorado was very active in the Littleton shootings, as
was Oklahoma during the Federal Building bombing.  Why would we expect the
July 4 chart to reflect local problems?

There's a concept of concatenation; events strung together like a string of
pearls.  That's the US, a string of linked individual pearls making a whole
necklace. There's a rebellion, the presidency, a constitution, branches of
govenment and individual states.

--Mary